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« Two-fer Tuesday! | Main | A Chorus of Mathematicians Joins Lang and Duesberg (and Hank) in Questioning Establishment AIDS »

September 12, 2006

Comments

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Dan

Why don't antibodies protect from disease since they are perfectly neutralizing?

George,
it was this unanswered question in 1984 that made me extremely skeptical, and made me question why gay men were rolling over and dying. I still haven't heard a valid explanation as to why HIV antibodies don't neutralize "HIV disease" when the neutralize HIV just fine. Oh wait, I've got it...HIV is producing billions of mutant versions every 24 hours. Whew! Never mind. It all makes perfect sense now!

Marvin Serkin

Dan,

This is the first time I have ever written to a weblog, and probably the last, but when you wrote "HIV-disease" above I was compelled to write this to you.

Ain't that the Truth! Those AIDS fakes and murderers changed up on the name a while ago among the congnoscenti of the field. The experts get very miffed now when you try and talk to then about AIDS, preferring to discuss this utterly new, "new age" invention of their utterly Orwellian mindsets --- HIV disease.

Exactly like the madman who has found one word to express everything.

Andrew Maniotis

Regarding the issue of hemophilia, thrombocytopenia, coagulopathies, and AIDS, and consistent with post-marketing experience package inserts from the drug makers, we find that "AIDS-defining" bleeding disorders, as well as a host of other adverse events, can occur as a result of these medications in the absence of "HIV." For example:

Mrs. Audrey Serrano is a 42 year-old woman who had one "HIV" Enzyme-Linked Immunosorbant Assay (EIA) test "lost or misplaced" by her physicians in 1994. Following this "lost or misplaced test," she discovered that her wrong date of birth and social security number were on the EIA report form, and she was never given a confirmatory Western Blot (WB) after the first allegedly positive EIA. She has subsequently tested negative on all EIA's, and repeated Polymerase Chain Reaction (PCR) tests of various types have yielded undetectable levels of "HIV" RNA for 9 years. Her T-cell count hovered around 600-800 for 9 years (which is at the low normal range).

However, from the time that the allegedly positive "HIV" EIA was performed in 1994, and although she was healthy by all criteria, Mrs. Serrano was immediately prescribed AZT as though she were "HIV-positive" without informed consent regarding the toxicity profile of AZT, and even though her T-cell counts were in the low normal range.

After she was informed about her misplaced "HIV" diagnosis, she attempted suicide by driving her car off a bridge after crying for hours and getting drunk, but failed, and was incarcerated, and was forced to take AZT while in prison. During her "treatment" with the "life-saving HAART cocktail" during the middle to late 1990's (in addition to AZT), for the first time in her life she began to suffer from constant diarrhea, muscle wasting, profound fatigue, non-specific skin lesions of various types, the "feeling she was about to die," bouts of oral thrush (oral candidiasis) herpes outbreaks, severe nose-bleeds, constant gynecological bleeding, bleeding gums, fibrocystic breast lesions, hyperplastic pituitary lesions, and heart and respiratory difficulties (heart failure on one occasion where she was revived).

Despite her desire to have children, she has no uterus, as it was removed due to one of her doctor's bullying and urging because of her constant gynecological bleeding and abdominal pain while on HAART. Since 2003, and after she obtained 6 new negative "HIV" EIA's from Bioran Laboratories and from Fallon Clinic, she has refused medications.

Despite discontinuing the medications since 2003, she has been battling irritable bowel syndrome, colitis, bleeding gums, and she wakes up every morning with new bruises on her body, especially on her legs and elsewhere. She cannot maintain her weight above 101 pounds, and is thus still experiencing wasting syndrome. She still experiences severe nosebleeds, and gum bleeding.

Finally, during Mrs. Serrano's "treatment," her daughter (her adopted niece) was taken from her for 2 years by DFCS out of fear that Mrs. Serrano would irresponsibly transmit "HIV" to her (despite her negative EIA's and undetectable "viral load" test results throughout).

During this time, Jessica was physically assaulted in the custody of DSS, given 2 documented STD's, and was forced to take thorazine, ritlin, benzadrine, clonapin, and other medications to control her recalcitrant behavior. Jessica now experiences severe emotional issues.

All of these things have happened to Mrs. Serrano and Jessica in the absence of any positive "HIV" test result since the initial, allegedly positive 1994 EIA, which was "lost or misplaced."

Therefore, according to both past and present "AIDS surveillance definitions," Mrs. Serrano now exhibits a host of AIDS-defining illnesses and coagulopathies, without ever having tested positive for "HIV or having a T-cell count anywhere near the CDC's surveillance-definitions of "AIDS."

Mrs. Serrano has a High School Diploma, a degree in electronics, a diploma as a paralegal, several certificates in dealing with children with special needs, and has acquired certificates in special education, and is currently active in the foundation she has created from ground up, "Families Against Abuse."

She is the only person to win a Pro se legal case against DFCS in Massachusetts in the history of DCFS when she fought them to regain custody of her step-daughter. She maintains a loving household with her mother for her now teenage daughter as she now continues to battle to regain her health.

(The above account is a condensation of my offical, and legally verifiable case histories. The names are real.)

Pharma Bawd

Thanks George,

“How does the virus kill T cells?”

There are several ways that are known. Here’s one example:
http://tinyurl.com/pop6n

There are other ways that are still unknown.

”Why don't antibodies protect from disease since they are perfectly neutralizing?”

Well George, that sounds like an interesting point until you think about it/read about it and you realize that neutralizing antibodies do not protect against all viral infections. HIV replicates inside the cell where antibodies circulating in the blood are unable to reach it. This is the same reason that neutralizing antibodies to herpes do not clear your body of a herpes infection. Direct cell to cell transmission of the virus has been observed:
http://tinyurl.com/o3yqh

so HIV can continue to infect other cells inside the body without ever being exposed to neutralizing antibodies.

” If the virus is constantly mutating to avoid drugs and the immune system's defenses, why are the same patented proteins used today to detect presumed antibodies to HIV that were patented 20 years ago?”


Well George, I guess they must have chosen antibodies that bind to a highly invariant region of viral protein. What’s more they’re not using exactly the same proteins they did 20 years ago there have been several changes depending on which test you look at. Also, Abbott labs, and others, invest a considerable amount of money and effort in a Global HIV Surveillance program that tracks new emerging strains of the virus and develops new HIV antibody tests specifically for mutated strains that previous tests would be unable to detect.
http://tinyurl.com/ohl8y

Pharma Bawd

First, you need to look up the definition of the word "quote mine". My quote is merely a quotation, Hank is the one doing the quote mining. As for the rest:

the Goedert one-page of Lancet correspondence is definitive experimental proof of the contention that hemophiliacs are "AIDS"-free unless they are HIV antibody reactive, and that all of their "AIDS" diseases, complications and their eventual death are the indirect result of infection, and have nothing to do with inotxication by the "highly specific" poison, AZT?”

You’re really off to the races there trying to put words in my mouth aren’t you?

Here’s what I’m saying: The 1994 Goedert publication explains that the hemophiliacs receiving AZT were probably more likely to develop AIDS because they were the sickest ones and so they were prescribed AZT. It was not the AZT that made them sick, get AIDS and die it was the HIV. This is made more clear by the 1995 Goedert report which states that HIV positive hemophiliacs, many of them probably the same patients as in the 1994 report, are 11X more likely to die than HIV negative.

That’s 11X more deaths for HIV+ and only 2X for AZT taking. That means a heck of a lot of HIV+ hemophiliacs who are not on AZT are dying, therefore its difficult to blame hemophiliac deaths on AZT instead of HIV infection.

I just want EVERYBODY to know, if they didn't by now that I’m talking about the 1994 Lancet paper by Goedert that was cited by Duesberg. I am not talking about other papers that have not been mentioned here. If you have something else, I’ll consider it separately.

just like your guru JP Moore.”

Just to let you know, the first time I ever heard of Moore was in Hank and Dean Esmay’s commenting on his review of Harvey’s book. I don’t know much more about him than those exchanges reveal.

George

Grand children and their mother gone and all was so well with the local world that I thought I would look and see what I had missed all day at my favorite weblog.

I see there are some wonderful comments (extremely well written too for furnners)on the very remarkable scorpion woman post.

And I also see, right at the top, two comments from Pharma Bawd, to which I reply thusly:

Just because you are no longer posting as a self-acknowledged Ditz does not change the quality of what you write one iota (that's a Greek letter).

You have no idea (that's a Greek word. You might look it up in a good dictionary and find out whether it is related to eidolon or idiot) about anything child. You are quite simply a programmed pharma-robot and therefore not only impossible to intelligently discourse with, also impossible to make understand anything that is not already inscribed on the hard drive.

Andrew Maniotis

Dear Pharma Bawd (and others),

You raise a question:

“How does the virus kill T cells?”

"There are several ways that are known. Here’s one example:
http://tinyurl.com/pop6n"

"There are other ways that are still unknown."

I looked up the Maldarelli et al. study you cited. As usual, these folks don't know how to do tissue culture to model a disease state not to mention normal lymphocyte biology. Their "apoptosis" results were obtained in cultures containing lymphoblastic cell lines, rather than healthy normal human lymphocytes.

Cancer cells, and even immortalized cells are different than normal cells.

Many have claimed (by presenting inappropriate evidence of isolation) that "HIV" is difficult, but possible to isolate, from cell cultures of activated normal lymphocytes, or from other cells types such as leukemia cells. The "HIV" cell culture joke appeared for the first time when Luc Montagnier and his colleagues claimed in the journal Nature, that LAV replication ("HIV's first name-Lymphodenopathy-ASSOCIATED Virus), and its associated cytopathic effects (damage and killing of normal T4 cells), only occurs when T4 cells are "activated:"

"....replication and cytopathic effect of LAV can only be observed in activated T4 cells. Indeed, LAV infection of resting T4 cells does not lead to viral replication or to expression of viral antigen on the cell surface, while stimulation by lectins or antigens of the same cells results in the production of viral particles, antigenic expression and the cytopathic effect (Klatzmann, D. & Montagnier, L. Approaches to AIDS therapy. Nature 319: 10-1, 1986).

Gallo et al. published the same artifactal cell culturing joke of PHA "activation" followed by IL2 stimulation (Zagury et al., Long-Term Cultures of HTLV-III-Infected T Cells: A Model of Cytopathology of T-Cell Depletion in AIDS. Science 231:850-853, 1986):

"the expression of HTLV-III ("HIV"s second name-Human T-cell Lymphotropic Virus number III) was always preceded by the initiation of interleukin-2 secretion, both of which occurred only when T-cells were immunologically activated" with PHA.

Even DAIDS, in its 1997 "HIV" culturing manual was aware of the joke, because they were (are) fully aware that non-infected cultures, stimulated with mitogenic lectins or other oxidizing agents, will test positive for "HIV" surrogate markers (the joke about the specificity of surrogate markers of "HIV" like RT and p24 and p41 for "HIV" I will leave for another discussion) in the absence of "HIV," as long as they are immunologically stimulated or activated. For instance, under quality control,” Section VI, page 45, the DAIDS manual warned “HIV” cell culturists:

"Do not use PHA stimulated PBMC older than 3 days post stimulation" when testing them for the absence of "HIV" from your healthy donor source (DAIDS official "HIV" culturing manual, under quality control, Section VI, page 45, 1997).

Why not use normal T-cells older than 3 days to validate that your donor source is uncontaminated with "HIV?" In a controlled tissue culture experiment, at all times, every molecule or factor should be the same in both control and experimental cultures save one (the basis of scientific method is in here somewhere) but this is not what DIADS (or Montagnier or Gallo) advocated.

In non-technical language, DAIDS claimed that the way to make sure control cultures (healthy donor source cells) were indeed not infected with "HIV" before you experiment with them was to quit watching the control cultures after 3 days. Otherwise, they test "HIV positive" because once stimulated, they will express the various "HIV-specific" surrogate markers, and despite the fact that no "HIV" was ever present in that control culture.

Because you didn't like my call for appreciation of the complexities of coagulopathies I posted above, or my example of Mrs. Serrano's development of AIDS-defining coagulopathies in the absence of "HIV" but in the presence of AZT and HAART, such as persistant gynocological bleeding, bleeding from the gums, bruising all over her body, or cardiovascular disease, then it might be cogent, to our hemophilia blog here to remember that (From Papadopulos et al., Emergency Medicine 1993;5:5-147):

In the first, seminal paper on HIV isolation, entitled "Detection Isolation and Continuous Production of Cytopathic Retroviruses (HTLV-III) from Patients with AIDS and Pre-AIDS",(6) Popovic, Gallo and their colleagues first described a leukaemic T-cell line, HT. This cell line was exposed "to concentrated culture fluids harvested from short-term cultures of T-cells... obtained from patients with AIDS or pre-AIDS. The concentrated fluids were first shown to contain particle-associated RT". The finding in the HT cell line as well as in 8 clones derived from it including H4, H9 and H17, of: (a) RT; (b) cell immunofluoresence with serum from a HAEMOPHILA patient with pre-AIDS, and "Rabbit antiserum to HTLV-III", was considered evidence for the existence in these cultures of a retrovirus which was named HTLV-III. "Both virus production and cell viability of the infected clone H4 (H4/HTLV-III) were monitored for several months. Although virus production [RT activity] fluctuated (Fig. 2a), culture fluids harvested and assayed at approximately 14-day intervals consistently showed particulate RT activity [RT activity in the material which banded at 1.16 gm/ml] which has been followed for over 5 months... Thus the data show that this permanently growing T-cell population can continuously produce HTLV-III".

I guess "HIV" didn't kill these cells so maybe Maldarelli et al. got it wrong....but note that the cytokine storm in hemophilia patients (with pre-AIDS-according to Gallo), was sufficient to "immunologically detect" "HIV-surrogate markers" at least in vitro.

But is this science or anything resembling controlled scientific experimentation?

I think not. A cruel joke perhaps?

Somebody should look up molecular mimicry and cancer cells for explanations about why hemophilia serum from PRE-AIDS hemophilia patients identify cells in dishes that are immunologically activated or cancer cells in origin.

Marvin Serkin

Hey, this blog writing is addictive. I better watch myself, but I can't resist adding a little something after reading the last few comments.

Dr. Maniotis writes and argues clearly, defensibly and completely. Whether you agree or not with his conclusions, in order to argue with them you actually need to know (a) how to reason, (b) what the scientific literature actually says, and (c) how to interprete what it says correctly.

A pharma-robot, programmed to peddle non-addicting, legal drugs that are more lethal than the illegal substances, and to do so with perks, does not meet these minimal requirements, although perhaps with serious upgrading in the future it might (like the chess programs have gotten very, very good, for example).

Ms. Ditz machine: Is it possible that somewhere in your feeble data library you have this factoid?

"HIV can be found at moderate to high IFU titres (not RNA PCR units)in "many" late stage AIDS patients". Instruction / sub-routine: "print the preceeding as a last resort to the viral load of crappers". Sub/sub-routine/ "if desired add "according to Nobel Prize winner David Baltimore in the NEJM".

Just so you knows and your programmers can rewrite some of your routines to avoid embarassing themselves and you even further:

This is actually proof of the passenger nature of the virus. All passengers are SOMETIMES reactivated AFTER the immune system collapses and their host begins to become a ghost.

Pathogenic microbes are active BEFORE and ALWAYS. David was trying to pull wool because of his once good name.

Pharma Ditz

Isn’t it interesting that the more bluster and false bravado a post contains, the more BS it contains? Take Andrew’s comments:

”Even DAIDS, in its 1997 "HIV" culturing manual was aware of the joke, because they were (are) fully aware that non-infected cultures, stimulated with mitogenic lectins or other oxidizing agents, will test positive for "HIV" surrogate markers (the joke about the specificity of surrogate markers of "HIV" like RT and p24 and p41 for "HIV" I will leave for another discussion) in the absence of "HIV," as long as they are immunologically stimulated or activated.”

The problem with this is the Maldarelli paper I cited does not rely on surrogate markers like RT, it demonstrates cell killing by HIV infected cells that bear an HIV protein on their surface. If such proteins could be produced by the cell in the absence of HIV infection, then the mere act of stimulating T cells with PHA would induce apoptosis. It does not.
Gee you sure read a lot out of Section VI p. 45, I repost the entire section below so that others may see this damning evidence in its entirety:

“VI. QUALITY CONTROL

Set up a qualitative HIV culture using the newly prepared donor PBMC as “patient cells” to verify that the new donor is HIV culture negative. (See - Qualitative PBMC Macrococulture Method.)

Do not use PHA-stimulated donor PBMC older than 3 days post stimulation.”

That’s it. One sentence, don’t use cells over 3 days after stimulation. If you think that’s an unusual suggestion for handling a cell culture then I question you’re knowledge of basic biology. Do you think phytohemagluttinin lasts forever? Reagents are never used up or broken down by cell cultures in your lab? Do you pick colonies from ampicillin plates that have sat out for two weeks? Why or why not?

... because once stimulated, they will express the various "HIV-specific" surrogate markers, and despite the fact that no "HIV" was ever present in that control culture.”

This is simply not true. Yes stimulated cells will express RT, retroviruses have even been recovered, at least from pig cells, but HIV cannot be recovered from cells that have not been infected with HIV in the first place. Such stimulated lymphocytes do not express “HIV-specific” surrogate markers, all of these proteins can be distinguished from HIV proteins at the molecular level. They are not the same thing anymore than human insulin and bovine insulin are.

Normally I would tend to agree with your knee-jerk criticism of the use of cell cultures rather than “normal” cells, but in this case such criticism is unwarranted. As I implied in my comment, this Maldarelli paper is neither the beginning nor the end of our knowledge of how HIV exerts cytopathic effects on T cells. Here for instance is a similar experiment using fresh T lymphocytes from HIV infected patients and showing that they are able to induce apoptosis in normal T lymphocytes obtained from HIV- donors.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=9784070&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

Because you didn't like my call for appreciation of the complexities of coagulopathies I posted above,...”

Truth be told, I didn’t read it. I’m not going to respond to the rest because I think at this point we both know that no matter how many times I show you that you’re wrong about AZT causing AIDS in hemophiliacs, you will not relinquish this belief.

Pharma Bawd

The truncated URL above should have led to this paper:

1: Virus Res. 1998 Jul;56(1):115-22.

A specific T-cell subset with CD4+/CD38- markers derived from HIV-1 carriers induces apoptosis in healthy donor-derived T-lymphocytes.

* Kameoka M,
* Auwanit W,
* Suzuki S,
* Horikoshi H,
* Khlai-Khlam N,
* Meguro T,
* Yamada K,
* Tanaka Y,
* Yoshihara K,
* Luftig RB,
* Ikuta K.

Section of Serology, Institute of Immunological Science, Hokkaido University, Sapporo, Japan.

Apoptosis is an important mechanism of human immunodeficiency virus type 1 (HIV-1)-induced T-cell depletion. Our recent findings revealed mitogenic stimulation-dependent apoptosis induction in healthy donor-derived peripheral blood T-lymphocytes after adsorption with defective HIV-1 particles through acquirement by a subset of CD4+/CD38- cells of specific killer function. Based on these in vitro observations, we have extended the significance of this killing activity of CD4+/CD38- cells directly derived from HIV-1 carriers. The CD4+/CD38- cells from HIV-1-positive individuals showed significantly higher cell-killing activities than those from HIV-1-negative donors by co-culture with allogeneic resting T-cells after mitogenic stimulation. Furthermore, most of the samples induced apoptosis in a Fas-dependent manner. Thus, it is suggested that HIV-1 infection-related apoptosis is triggered by inappropriate activation of a certain resting T-cell subset, presumably due to adsorption with HIV-1 particles.

George

1. The PB-M wishes to claim the mechanism(s) by which HIV ills T-cells and thus causes AIDS are clear in the literature.

This is utter and complete nonsense as anyone who even knows a portion of the literature until today knows full well. The barely qualified bot is tring to convince the naive, which is its main secondary purpose (the primary one of course being to sell prescirption drugs).

2. Come again?

we both know that no matter how many times I show you that you’re wrong about AZT causing AIDS in hemophiliacs, you will not relinquish this belief.

You are the most aggravating little girly bot I have ever encountered. If I had you ever in a class, I think you would be in physical danger from thrown books (and not by me!).

Haemoglobin

Haemoglobin*
----------------
I was hanging from a tree
Unaccustomed to such violence
Jesus looking down on me
I'm prepared for one big silence

How'd I ever end up here
Must be through some lack of kindness
And it seemed to dawn on me
Haemoglobin is the key

Haemoglobin is the key
To a healthy heart beat
Haemoglobin is the key
To a healthy heart beat

At the time they cut me free
I was brimming with defiance
Doctors looking down on me
Breaking every law of science
How'd I ever end up here?
A latent strain of color blindness
Then it seemed to dawn on me
Haemoglobin is the key

Haemoglobin is the key
To a healthy heart beat
Haemoglobin is the key
To a healthy heart beat

Now my feet don't touch the ground
Now my feet don't touch the ground

As they drag me to my feet
I was filled with incoherence
Theories of conspiracy
The whole world wants my disappearance
I'll go fighting nail and teeth
You've never seen such perseverance
Gonna make you scared of me
Cause haemoglobin is the key

Haemoglobin is the key
To a healthy heart beat
Haemoglobin is the key
To a healthy heart beat

Now my feet don't touch the ground
Now my feet don't touch the ground
--------------
Placebo - Black Market Music (2000)

Interpretations of this song can be found here:

http://www.songmeanings.net/lyric.php?lid=9135

I think it pretty much fits the HIV-AZT-Anemia topic.

Marvin Serkin

PB-M,

I see your spew cycle has not tuned on yet so here are another few kb of data to process as best your programs allow.

You wrote the following piece of insulting verbiage that equals in chutzbah your best attempts to reason like a thinking human being:

"That's it. One sentence, don't use cells over 3 days after stimulation. If you think that's an unusual suggestion for handling a cell culture then I question you're knowledge of basic biology. Do you think phytohemagluttinin lasts forever? Reagents are never used up or broken down by cell cultures in your lab? Do you pick colonies from ampicillin plates that have sat out for two weeks? Why or why not?"

If you had spent five minutes using your only available source of new data, the intenet, you would have discovered exactly who Dr. Maniotis is, and seen the abstracts of at least a few of the extremely important papers (with gigantic citation indices) he has published as senior author.

I think even your sub-sub-sub-routine, and almost nonexistent censor macro would have kicked in had you done so.

DT

So now we have resported to the "argument from authority" fallacy, have we ("If you had spent five minutes using your only available source of new data, the intenet, you would have discovered exactly who Dr. Maniotis is"). Who he is doesn't make his opinions more (or less) valid. You can't argue with data.

While we discuss Dr Maniotis' opinions, perhaps he would be so kind as to say why he insists Mrs. Serrano's bleeding problems are "AIDS-defining"? Is he reading from a totally different textbook? Does he even know what is AIDS-defining?

Marvin Serkin

DT

Are you also a robot? I was referring to the abusive, infantile insulting, totally uncalled for tone of its comment to someone who clearly knows a *great* deal more about the subject than it, and you.

But good to see you read the important literature like the illogic thread here. Do you have any comments on the scorpion woman AIDS awareness poster?

I'll bet you do, and I also bet you are fearful to air them in the comment string there.

That is assuming you are not a bot. If you are, as you give every appearance of being, then of course you have no feelings whatsoever and just do what the programmers programmed.

Claus

Dr. DT, I presume?

There is one logical fallacy even more egregious than argument from authority, and that is the argument from empty authority combined with nothing to say other than to retype one or two "factoids" as I think some other commenter here called the tidbits of half-truth that you parade around as serious academic knowledge.

It puts me in mind of that favorite saying of George's teacher G.I. Gurdjieff, that he has deposited somewhere at Hank's previously for the edification of everyone with three, working, connected brains.

"Pouring from the Empty into the Void", in spades!

Andrew Maniotis

Dear Pharma Ditz,

I wasn't blogging as an authority, especially regarding the science of cell culturing, which I have spent almost a lifetime doing, which is why I know less and less about it. But I believe I have learned what one cannot interpret or claim from the art of cell and tissue culturing.

Regarding the T-cell cultures described by Montagnier, Gallo, and DAIDS (who WERE experts on T-cell culturing), I was trying to point out the logical impasse of their uncontrolled experiment. To claim an experiment is controlled, FOR EQUAL TIMES, all the molecules or factors, save one (in this case "HIV") must be the same. These experts of T-cell culturing were the first to point out that there is something extremely fishy about the fact that you can only get the damn thing to apparently work (an in vitro "HIV" infection) if you mitogenically stimulate the hell out of the cells, which generates the same pathogenic effect in healthy cells, whether or not "HIV" is present. This isn't rocket science-just a simple issue regarding how to interpret or not to interpret a properly controlled (or in this case, not properly-controlled) comparison.

Yet you wrote:
"If such proteins could be produced by the cell in the absence of HIV infection, then the mere act of stimulating T cells with PHA would induce apoptosis. It does not."

But as both Gallo's group and Montagnier's group pointed out, the mitogens complicate the picture, not only with respect to expression of surrogate markers (such as RT thought to be the specific marker for "HIV" for many years as you might recall despite Temin's and Varmus's claims to the contrary), and especially with respect to the type of analysis that Malderelli et al. did-which was to document cell death and DNA laddering. This is the key point because as both Montagnier's and Gallo's groups both knew:

"....replication and cytopathic effect of LAV can only be observed in activated T4 cells. Indeed, LAV infection of resting T4 cells does not lead to viral replication or to expression of viral antigen on the cell surface, while stimulation by lectins or antigens of the same cells results in the production of viral particles, antigenic expression and the cytopathic effect" (Klatzmann, D. & Montagnier, L., 1986. Approaches to AIDS therapy. Nature 319:10-1).

So how could you ever know if your donor source was uninfected, unless you stimulated the control cells with PHA, which leads to the cytopathic effect whether or not the cells have been virus infected?
My main point to you was that you cannot make claims about the pathogenicity (or lack of pathogenicity in the case of "HIV" by examining the infection's effect on tumor cells.

Regarding normal lymphocytes, do you think Montagnier and Gallo were wrong, and was DAIDS perhaps trying to make sense out of something that made no sense by only allowing cells to be tested for only 3 days? What you say about the wisdom of keeping the cells for only a few days is wrong, and unjustified in my experience, and Gallo's and Montagnier's groups themselves claimed to sometimes keep their cultures for 5 months, and they were immunologically stimulated with PHA and continuously generating infectious "HIV" without significant apoptosis detectable, which is longer than 3 days!!

Do you see my reason for concern here?

Montagnier's group also stated that:

"In chronically infected CEM cells and the monocytic line, U937, no apoptosis was detected although "these cells produced continuously infectious virus."

If this is true, then why should continuously productive lymphocytes producing infectious "HIV" induce any cellular pathology in humans?

This non-pathogenic effect noted in persistently infected T-cell cultures was also noted in 1985 by Hoxie et al. in a paper published in 1985 in Science entitled:

"Persistent noncytopathic infection of normal human T ymphocytes with AIDS-associated retrovirus (Hoxie et al., Persistant noncytopathic infection of normal human T ymphocytes with AIDS-associated retrovirus. Science 229 (4720): 1400, 1985).”

A lack of pathological effect on T cells in vitro noted by Montagnier et al. and Hoxie et al. would also be consistent with one of Gallo's claims regarding one of the characteristics of the first "AIDS" defining disease, Kaposi's Sarcoma, where he and 'ol Flossie proclaimed that:

"The association of Kaposi's sarcoma with AIDS deserves special mention. This otherwise extremely rare malignancy occurs predominantly in a restricted group, that is, the homosexuals, and can occur in the absence of any T-cell defect in the patients" (Flosie Wong-Staal & Robert C. Gallo. Nature Vol 317, 3 Oct 1985).

AIDS with no T-cell defect? Did I miss something here? Then we got ICL AIDS of course (courtesy of Fauci and others) which is AIDS without any "HIV" detectable at any time. And talk about how specific the proteins of "HIV" are, we got the thymus glands of "HIV-negative" children expressing p24 and other so-called “HIV-specific” markers (Dura WT, Wozniewicz BM. Expression of antigens homologous to human retrovirus molecules in normal and severely atrophic thymus. Thymus.;22(4):245-54, 1994), as well as goats, sheeps, and cows that express "HIV-1" proteins that don't ever develop "AIDS-defining diseases." Cruzin cattle we call em.

Andrew Maniotis

Dear DT,

Regarding:

"While we discuss Dr Maniotis' opinions, perhaps he would be so kind as to say why he insists Mrs. Serrano's bleeding problems are "AIDS-defining"? Is he reading from a totally different textbook? Does he even know what is AIDS-defining?"

The bleeding problems were cited to show how AZT and HAART can cause coagulopathies and thrombocytopenias in the absence of "HIV" (bleeding and clotting disorders) difficult to distinguish from some types of hemophilia.

Mrs Serrano exhibited 7 AIDS-indicator illnesses: chronic diarrhea, Herpes, anemia, thrombocytopenia, wasting, oral candidiasis, cardiovascular problems-all of which are considered "AIDS-indicator diseases."

By my recent count,the following have been advanced as being AIDS-indicator diseases:

AIDS experts say there are 6 types of HIV/AIDS- associated cancers:
1-Kaposi’ s sarcoma in a patient < 60 years of age, + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated* with “HIV” (ALTHOUGH KAPOSI'S WAS THE ORIGINAL AIDS-DEFINING CANCER, IT IS NO LONGER CONSIDERED BY MOST EXPERTS AS AN AIDS INDICATOR DISEASE- (Papadopulos-Eleopulos E, Turner VF, Papadimitriou J, Page B, Causer D, Alfonso H, Mhlongo S, Miller T, Maniotis A, Fiala C. A critique of the Montagnier evidence for the HIV/AIDS hypothesis. Med Hypotheses. 2004;63(4):597-601).

2-Cervical cancer or mouth cancer + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.” (Cervical dysplasia and cervical cancer were added to the AIDS definition in 1993 causing the number of women classified with AIDS to increase notably. Even though some 65,000 Americans are diagnosed each year with cervical cancers, and only a small fraction of these (about .0015%) are among women that test "HIV" positive, and doctors assumed that "HIV-associated antibodies" + cervical abnormalities = AIDS. Cancer of the mouth was added this year as announced by "The New Scientist", although no comprehensive studies can be found documenting this on MEDLINE." (Wed Feb 25, 2004. LONDON (Reuters - "Although the risk is small and it is more likely to result from heavy drinking and smoking, scientists have suggested that oral sex can cause mouth cancer").

3-Lymphoma of the brain (primary) affecting a patient < 60 years of age + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

4-Lymphoma, non-Hodgkins + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

5-Lymph system cancer diagnosed three or more months after a diagnosis of any opportunistic infection + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

6-Progressive multifocal leukoencephalopathy + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

NON-HIV/AIDS related cancers that are indistinguishable from the 6 AIDS-defining cancers when seen in the clinic:
1-Kaposi’ s sarcoma in a patient < 60 years of age minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

2-Cervical cancer or mouth cancer minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

3-Lymphoma of the brain (primary) affecting a patient < 60 years of age minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

4-Lymphoma, non-Hodgkins minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

5-Lymph system cancer diagnosed three or more months after a diagnosis of any opportunistic infection minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

6-Progressive multifocal leukoencephalopathy minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

AIDS experts say there are at least 10 generalized syndromes that ARE AIDS-defining illnesses:

7-Fever of unknown etiology + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.” (Highly prevalent in Africa, especially where "HIV" test kits have not yet been introduced, and where the "HIV" doctor's judgment has been solely relied on).

8-Persistant headache lasting 1 month + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

9-Muscle wasting syndrome (slim disease) + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

10-Retinitis of several forms + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

11-Encephalopathy of various forms + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

12-Dimentia of various forms + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

13-Anemia + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

14-Low (< 250 cells/ ml) CD-4-positive cell count + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

15-Thrombocytopenia + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

16-Warts + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

Old generalized syndromes that ARE NOT AIDS-defining illnesses but yet are indistinguishable from them when seen in the clinic:
7-Fever of unknown etiology minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

8-Persistant headache lasting 1 month minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

9-Muscle wasting syndrome (slim disease) minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

10-Retinitis of several forms minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

11-Encephalopathy of various forms minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

12-Dimentia of various forms minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

13-Anemia minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

14-Low (< 250 cells/ ml) CD-4-positive cell count minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

15-Thrombocytopenia minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

16-Warts minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”


AIDS experts say there are 16 micro-organism-associated diseases (opportunistic infections-OI's) that ARE AIDS-defining illnesses:

17-Candidiasis of the oesophagus, trachea, bronchi, or lungs + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV”

18-Coccidiomycosis, disseminated (at a site other than or in addition to lungs or cervical or hilar lymph nodes) + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV”

19-Cryptococcosis, extrapulmonary + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

20-Cryptosporidiosis with diarrhea persisting > 1 month + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

21-Histoplasmosis, disseminated (at a site other than or in addition to lungs or cervical or hilar lymph nodes) + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

22-Isosporiasis with diarrhea persisting > 1 month + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

23-Mycobacterium avuim complex or M. kansasii disease, disseminated (at a site other than or in addition to lungs, skin, or cervical or hilar lymph nodes) + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

24-Mycobacterium tuberculosis + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

25-Any mycobacterial disease caused by mycobacteria other than M. tuberculosis, disseminated + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

26-Norardiosis + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

27-Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

28-Strongyloidiasis + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

29-Salmonella (non-typhoid ) septicaemia, recurrent, + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

30-Toxoplasmosis of the brain in a patient > 1 month of age + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

31-Zygomycosis + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

Micro-organism-associated diseases that ARE NOT AIDS-defining illnesses but which are indistinguishable from them when seen in the clinic:
17-Candidiasis of the oesophagus, trachea, bronchi, or lungs minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

18-Coccidiomycosis, disseminated (at a site other than or in addition to lungs or cervical or hilar lymph nodes) minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

19-Cryptococcosis, extrapulmonary minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

20-Cryptosporidiosis with diarrhea persisting > 1 month minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

21-Histoplasmosis, disseminated (at a sit other than or in addition to lungs or cervical or hilar lymph nodes) + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

22-Isosporiasis with diarrhea persisting > 1 month minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

23-Mycobacterium avuim complex or M. kansasii disease, disseminated (at a site other than or in addition to lungs, skin, or cervical or hilar lymph nodes) minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

24-Mycobacterium tuberculosis minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

25-Any mycobacterial disease (non-ideopathic) caused by mycobacteria other than disseminated M. tuberculosis minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

26-Norardiosis minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

27-Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

28-Strongyloidiasis minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

29-Salmonella (non-typhoid ) septicaemia, recurrent, minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

30-Toxoplasmosis of the brain in a patient > 1 month of age minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

31-Zygomycosis minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

AIDS experts say there are at least 5 viruses that ARE identified as AIDS-defining diseases or syndromes:

32-Herpes simplex virus infection causing a mucocutaneous ulcer persisting > 1 month; or bronchitis, + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

33- Cytomegalovirus diseases other than of the liver, spleen, or lymph nodes or cytomegalovirus retinitis with loss of vision in a patient >1 month of age + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

34-Hepatitis A-E antibodies + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

35-Non-specific hepatitis antigens + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

36-Epstein-Bar virus + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

Viral diseases or syndromes that are not considered AIDS-defining in "HIV-negative" patients but which are indistinguishable from them when seen in the clinic:
32-Herpes simplex virus infection causing a mucocutaneous ulcer persisting > 1 month; or bronchitis, minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

33- Cytomegalovirus diseases other than of the liver, spleen, or lymph nodes or cytomegalovirus retinitis with loss of vision in a patient >1 month of age minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

34-Hepatitis A-E antigens minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

35-Non-specific hepatitis minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

36-Epstein-Bar virus minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

AIDS experts say there are 7 recognized birth and perinatal defects seen in “HIV-positive” infants:

37-Cranial enlargement in Colorado infants + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

38-Low birth weight + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

39-Failure to thrive + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

40-Generalized persistant lymphadenopathy + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

41-Pneumonitis, or oesophagitis for any duration in a patient > 1 month of age + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

42-Chronic lymphoid interstitial pneumonitis if a child presents with these syndromes + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

43- Heart defects + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

44- Liver hemorrhage in some hemophiliacs + antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV” as in the case of Ryan White, the young hemophiliac who died of a liver bleed, and who is the poster child of the Ryan White act, which provides money for those said to be "HIV" positive or have "AIDS."

Birth and perinatal defects seen in “HIV-negative" infants:
37-Cranial enlargement in Colorado infants, minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

38-Low birth weight, minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

39-Failure to thrive, minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

40-Generalized persistant lymphadenopathy, minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

41-Pneumonitis, or oesophagitis for any duration in a patient > 1 month of age, minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”.

42-Chronic lymphoid interstitial pneumonitis if a child presents with these syndromes, minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

43-Heart defects minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

New AIDS-defining illnesses according to new reports by AIDS experts:

44-Liver hemorrhage in some hemophiliacs plus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV,” as in the case of Ryan White.

45-Acceleration of Alzheimer's dementia in elderly patients plus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

46- Kidney disease plus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

47. Adverse reaction to amoxicillin plus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

Old illness that are indistinguishable from "liver hemorrhage in some hemophiliacs, acceleration of Alzheimer's dementia, kidney disease, and adverse reactions to amoxicillin.

44-Liver hemorrhage in some hemophiliacs minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”


45-Acceleration of Alzheimer's dementia in elderly patients minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

46. Kidney disease minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

47. Adverse reaction to amoxicillin minus antibodies or genomic fragments indirectly associated with “HIV.”

Lise

Well George, I guess they must have chosen antibodies that bind to a highly invariant region of viral protein.

Pharma sister,

"They" chose which antibodies the patients' immune systems will produce against HIV?

Or do you mean that the patients produce so many different types of antibodies that we can just pick and choose between them until we find some smarter than the smart virus that bind to a 'highly invariable region' of the patented proteins? How convenient.

So why is the virus not neutralized by them was the original question. . . Oh I see you've answered that already. Direct cell to cell transmission "has been observed" (in vitro obviously).

Sort of like sex on the cellular level you mean? Devilishly clever virus that. So in your opinion are the cells "observed" engaging in this type of behaviour gay cells, black cells, or maybe black gay cells?

Even more seriously,

What's more they're not using exactly the same proteins they did 20 years ago there have been several changes depending on which test you look at

Are you saying the tests are not standardized, or even in agreement as to which proteins with "highly invariable regions" are AIDS specific? But that sounds like a horrible mess! Especially considering that the antibodies are supposed to bind to "highly invariable regions" of the same old patented proteins. Even my husband says so, and he's usually much more interested in microbes than in people.

DT

Dear Dr Andrew Maniotis,

With respect, I must say that you have not provided evidence that the illnesses you say Mrs Serrano experienced, both haematological and otherwise, are categorised as "AIDS-defining".

Providing a list of what you say nameless "AIDS experts" think is insufficient when you provide no references for these opinions. Which classification system do they appear in? All AIDS experts I am aware of use the CDC guidelines. For reference, may I direct you to the WHO page linking to all current definitions : http://www.who.int/hiv/strategic/surveillance/definitions/en/

If I can quote you directly: you have stated that "Mrs Serrano exhibited 7 AIDS-indicator illnesses: chronic diarrhea, Herpes, anemia, thrombocytopenia, wasting, oral candidiasis, cardiovascular problems-all of which are considered AIDS-indicator diseases."

I beg to differ, as would "AIDS experts".

Muco-cutaneous Herpes is, I agree, an indicator disease only if it is persistent for > 1 month (how long did Mrs Serrano have hers for?).

Anaemia is not.

Thrombocytopenia is not.

Oral candidiasis is not.

"Cardiovascular problems" are not.

A wasting syndrome, in the absence of any other cause, may be, if sufficiently severe.

Chronic diarrhoea (without another obvious explanation) is one of the WHO clinical surveillance major indicator criteria. WHO surveillance criteria were evolved to provide a means for surveillance in resource poor countries rather than used for specific individual diagnosis (so in countries without ready access to HIV testing, clinical surveillance criteria such as chronic diarrhoea and wasting can be used as surrogate markers for AIDS prevalence). Using this in Mrs Serrano's case is inappropriate. It is wrong to go around "cherry-picking" the bits you want from different classification systems when these have been devised for specific scenarios.

Taking an extremely generous interpretation of the criteria for AIDS diagnosis, there may be 2 conditions (3 at a pinch) that Mrs Serrano had that are "AIDS-defining". Can you please be specific and give references to literature or classification systems that indicate the other 4 are AIDS-defining?

Martin Pato

I have just returned to the lab after a wonderful time in what is still (despite the horrendous scorpion woman image above) La Belle France, and had a chance to quickly read through this grown gargantuan string.

I find myself in agreement with those who have expressed dismay at the quality of the discussion of the anomalous result.

I might conclude that the editors did not ask the questioning reviewer(s) to express their satisfaction before publication.

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